In France, the law imposes a fine of €150 (£132) fine and/or citizenship course as a punishment for wearing a niqab or a face-covering veil. Is it not ironic that France, which claims to promote freedom of rights, is now snatching away the same rights from its own citizens? Clearly, this is a violation of women’s right and is restricting women from practicing their own religious beliefs. The law is presented under the auspice of “protecting” Muslim women and liberating them from oppression.
The banning of niqab law is based on misconceptions about Islam being inherently oppressive to women. Unfortunately, Muslims are partly to blame for such misconceptions. In some Muslim-majority countries women are mistreated and abused due to sexist cultural practices that are in violation of Islamic teachings. Muslims need to practice Islam correctly by understanding and applying truthful Islamic principles and eliminating all the unjust and oppressive practices. Moreover, Muslim in western/European countries need to explain and demonstrate the true teachings of Islam and explain the difference between backwards cultural practices and religious rituals by always referring to the holy book, the Qu’ran.
According to statistics, there are 2,000 Muslim converts in France that voluntarily chose to wear the niqab. Most of them lost their jobs because they refused to remove the veil at work. From their perspective, they feel that they are preventing themselves from being objectified and sexualized. They want their sexuality to be in their control. They do not want people to judge them based on their body appearances but rather deal with their intelligence. I find it very hypocritical when western governments and human rights groups rush to defend women’s right when some governments (such as government of Afghanistan) force women to wear a certain dress code, yet, these same “freedom fighters” look the other way when women are deprived of their rights to freedom of choice, to practice religion and to work, just because they chose to exercise their right to wear the niqab. Many women, such as Hibah Ahmed, believe that they are fighting against a systematic oppression against women in which women's bodies are sexualized and objectified. “…if we want to really talk about the oppressive situation of women lets talk about all the eating disorders, the plastic surgeries, all of the unhealthy diets that are being done all in the name of having the perfect body. To me this (niqab) is liberating and this is empowering."
I never looked at oppression in this way because media usually shows oppression as women being forced to wear the hijab/niqab but it never shows women being forced to remove it. For clarification, the niqab is not mandatory; however, the hijab is in Islam. I am against the banning of the niqab because it violates democracy, basic human rights and it oppresses women . However, if it is a matter of safety, and the woman has to prove her identity, for example in airports, courtrooms etc, than I strongly believe that the woman must remove her veil to prove her identity. After all, why should she be any special than anyone else. The law is justice to everyone which is why she should remove the veil if safety becomes a concern or if identity needs to be proven.
1. What is your opinion about the banning of niqab? Do you support it? why or why not?
2. Do you think France will ever change its law about the banning of niqab?
4. Do you believe there is such thing as "Islamophobia?" If yes, do you think Islamophobia is the most underlying reason/factor to the banning of niqab?
The banning of niqab law is based on misconceptions about Islam being inherently oppressive to women. Unfortunately, Muslims are partly to blame for such misconceptions. In some Muslim-majority countries women are mistreated and abused due to sexist cultural practices that are in violation of Islamic teachings. Muslims need to practice Islam correctly by understanding and applying truthful Islamic principles and eliminating all the unjust and oppressive practices. Moreover, Muslim in western/European countries need to explain and demonstrate the true teachings of Islam and explain the difference between backwards cultural practices and religious rituals by always referring to the holy book, the Qu’ran.
According to statistics, there are 2,000 Muslim converts in France that voluntarily chose to wear the niqab. Most of them lost their jobs because they refused to remove the veil at work. From their perspective, they feel that they are preventing themselves from being objectified and sexualized. They want their sexuality to be in their control. They do not want people to judge them based on their body appearances but rather deal with their intelligence. I find it very hypocritical when western governments and human rights groups rush to defend women’s right when some governments (such as government of Afghanistan) force women to wear a certain dress code, yet, these same “freedom fighters” look the other way when women are deprived of their rights to freedom of choice, to practice religion and to work, just because they chose to exercise their right to wear the niqab. Many women, such as Hibah Ahmed, believe that they are fighting against a systematic oppression against women in which women's bodies are sexualized and objectified. “…if we want to really talk about the oppressive situation of women lets talk about all the eating disorders, the plastic surgeries, all of the unhealthy diets that are being done all in the name of having the perfect body. To me this (niqab) is liberating and this is empowering."
I never looked at oppression in this way because media usually shows oppression as women being forced to wear the hijab/niqab but it never shows women being forced to remove it. For clarification, the niqab is not mandatory; however, the hijab is in Islam. I am against the banning of the niqab because it violates democracy, basic human rights and it oppresses women . However, if it is a matter of safety, and the woman has to prove her identity, for example in airports, courtrooms etc, than I strongly believe that the woman must remove her veil to prove her identity. After all, why should she be any special than anyone else. The law is justice to everyone which is why she should remove the veil if safety becomes a concern or if identity needs to be proven.
1. What is your opinion about the banning of niqab? Do you support it? why or why not?
2. Do you think France will ever change its law about the banning of niqab?
4. Do you believe there is such thing as "Islamophobia?" If yes, do you think Islamophobia is the most underlying reason/factor to the banning of niqab?
I have recently read an article about prohibition of hijab/niqab from the Metro newspaper. I was frankly surprised to hear that they actually enacted this law because last time I checked they were only debating about it. This is quite an absurd conclusion in my part; as they claim that they are “protecting” Muslim women by equalizing their rights, but in fact they are abusing their religion and cultural values by imposing these rules on them. If they wish to protect women, I believe that they should also consider their freedom of choice, which in this case would be allowing them to keep their hijab and/or niqab and other religious customs they are entitled to wear. This act is not only violating freedom of rights but also the religious practices for these individuals. Every person has different values and beliefs, including cultural/religious merits. What might seem improper or a violation of women’s rights (by wearing the hijab) in France, does not essentially mean that they are liberating Muslim women with this newly established law. I believe that there is a lot of political interest involved in this whole situation that is going on in France, yet again, everyone’s views are different and so the topic can be debated thereof. To my knowledge, it is very wrong to impose such a law in a place where there is a lot of cultural mixture of people, and claiming that they are banning their cultural/religious customs in attempt to protect or respect the integrity of their country, it’s just as equally wrong and incorrect, because it is not true.
ReplyDeleteThe niqab is something that was not only banned because of it's association with oppresion but also because it posed as a security risk. It is nearly impossible to identify someone who has their face covered. Which is why people who wear ski masks in banks or other public places (even in winter!) are asked to remove them. You can't tell someone wearing a niqab to remove their covering when they come into public places because the whole reason they wear them is to cover up from the eyes of the public.
ReplyDeleteAnother reason that contributed to the banning was the fact that facial expression is essential for communication and if the face is not seen(and the body is covered by loose garments that hide body language anyways) it creates an obstacle in communiction.
Although I do not think it was necessary to ban the niqab and burqa altogether, some women who wear the niqab claim that it makes them feel 'safe' from the judgmental eyes of the world. Don't you think there is something wrong with that? They are hiding behind their niqabs! Women should not have to feel so scared about being judged like this so much so that they have to hide and prevent progress in their lives. I think that by banning the niqab, France is helping the women that feel this way.
I know that this is against the constitutional rights of the citizens in France as practising religion is a freedom, not a right (so it can't be taken away) but the safety of the nation comes first and since identification issues arise from face coverings it had to be banned. This is not a crime against the religion of Islam; they have not banned the idea of modesty which is the fundamental reason why the Quran prescribes wearing the niqab.
Infact, the Quran never mentions the niqab, only the hijab. Muslims fundamentalists have assumed this face covering; it is an interpretation.
‘[Tell the believing women) to draw their veils over their necks and bosoms’ (Qur'an 24: 31).
No mention of face here--
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands..." (Qur'an 24:30)
The line that says 'what must ordinarily appear thereof' could mean many things, not just the eyes. It could mean the entire face!
Edit: *Quran prescribes wearing the hijab.*
ReplyDeleteand to answer your questions Fatima,
It doesn't seem like France will buddge with their decision. Their decision was not a result of islamaphobia, there are many other reasons why it was banned.
I definitely don’t support the banning of the niqab, because by banning the niqab France is violating women rights and not allowing them to continue in practicing their religion. In Islam wearing a hijab is compulsory, but it is not forced on anyone, it is worn by individuals who want to wear them. And those individuals who wear the niqab are wearing it because they choose to, and in Islam wearing the niqab is permitted. In the video Mona Eltahawy said that since the Quran does not say that the wearing of a niqab is an obligation then she totally supports the banning of the niqab. I disagree with her point because even though the Quran doesn’t say that wearing a niqab is an obligation, doesn’t make it okay in banning it. I get that France believes that it is a good idea in banning the niqab, but why should their beliefs ban Muslim women from wearing what they want to wear. On the other hand, a reason why France is banning the niqab is for the safety of the public and I think that Muslim women who wear the niqab also care about the safety of the public as well, and that’s why Muslim women are allowed to remove their niqab for their identity, so banning the niqab completely is just wrong and is restricting women from practicing their religion.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, I think that France would not change its law about banning the niqab because they believe that it is good for the safety of the public. I think that there might be a possibility that France might change its law about banning the niqab if Muslim women come out and protest for their rights in France like the big protest that occurred in Egypt.
What about if random non-muslim people start to wear the niqab in public? If it's not exclusive to this religion, than potentially anyone can wear it, including people with criminal intent. It makes it so much easier for people with criminal intent to take advantage of this 'mask' which is essentially why it was banned. This sort of thing has happened before. We have to learn from this. If it's not mandatory in Islam, don't you think that it makes it okay that it is banned? I mean sure, it may be a choice to cover up, but public nudity also has restrictions (only at nude beaches can you take your clothes off). One can argue that that is also a personal choice.
ReplyDeleteAlso, France has not banned the niqab from being worn inside mosques or private places like at home or a friend's house, just in public places.
Sadaf your argument on the "mask" being banned for safety issues is not valid as Islam permits women to uncover and show their faces when the need rises, safety precautions included. What you mentioned earlier about the Quran not speaking of the niqab is incorrect. The Quran is not loosely open to anyone’s interpretation, in fact reading the English translation alone while not understanding Arabic prohibits you from extracting the actual meaning of the verse. There are many sciences of the Quran in which people spend years learning. You must complete a number of stages until you are qualified to teach the Quran or to extract ruling from it. This is why it is easy to catch someone taking a verse of the Quran and putting it out of context. Therefore it is not sufficient to just read the English translation and think you’ve fully understood it when in fact you haven’t. As Muslims we pair both the Quran with the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammed (Salalahu Alayhee Wa salam) to get a full understanding of Islam as he is sent as an example for mankind. So how did the people of his time react when this verse was revealed? The women instantly took a cover and used it to cover themselves including their face. Some people believe that the niqab is mandatory to wear while others don’t so it’s not correct for you to make such a general statement about niqabs being recommended in Islam. That may be your beliefs but certainly not others. Another point you mentioned was that the niqab causes a communication barrier. Why do you believe it is sooo essential for a person to see someone when communicating with them. Do you mean to say that blind people are unable to communicate with the society? That because they simply can’t see they wont be able to function properly in the society, get jobs, get married etc.? I have seen blind people own business, have careers and do just about everything a normal person can. Them being blind does not prevent them from communicating to others nor does it stop others for speaking to them. If facial expressions were so “essential” to communication, why is it that social network such as Msn, Face book, twitter have gained so much popularity? This shows how effectively people are able to communicate with out the need to even see each other. And personally, I take enjoyment out of talking to relatives (around the world) over the phone, though I’ve never seen them I feel just as connected to them and love them none the less. Also just as you say some women “are hiding behind their niqabs” in fear of being judged (first off judged by what?) it can also be argued that there are women who are wearing the niqab out of complete faith and want to strive to be closer to God. The same women who are strong, productive and active in the society at large; women who are doctors, nurses, engineers etc. By banning the niqab is France not taking away from these women a part of who they are? Is it not restricting their spirituality? These women (who take up the majority of those who wear it) are therefore being targeted for something they believe in. Banning the niqab will only cause them to leave or remove themselves from the society, exactly what you fear the niqab itself already does.
ReplyDeleteTo illustrate my point, rewatch this video Fatima already posted on the debate on the niqab ban. Instead on focusing on the arguments tell me if you find it hard to understand the points the women (wearing the niqab) was making because you can’t see her face. Is her niqab creating any communication barrier? Does she seem as if she is insecure, hiding behind her “mask”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWJRam64dQY&feature=player_embedded
Woah... nice comeback ;)
ReplyDeleteBut I'm sorry to say I still disagree with you Tasnim, I'm still in favour of the ban.
First of all, I didn't say that those arguments were mine, those are France's arguments that I simply addressed and there's need to preech to me Islam; I am muslim too. It doesn't matter to me whether it is Sunnah to wear it or not, I was merely getting at the fact that anyone can wear it, not just muslims. And you can't speak for everyone who wears the niqab and say that they will take it off when they are asked because the reason why it was banned in Quebec was because a woman refused to take it off. Even non-muslims can wear it and they can easily refuse to take it off and say 'it's part of my religion'. Just because a religion says you can take it off doesn't mean everyone wearing it will take it off when asked. That's why it's a safety concern.
Secondly, of course Islam is open to interpretation. That's why we have different schools of thought; fundamentalist muslims, traditionalists, and the modern muslim and different imams that preech different things. That's exactly WHY peopel are studying it. If it was filled with clear statements then there's nothing to study! As much as you hate to believe it, people are twisting the words of Allah as we speak. The Quran was written in olden day Arabic, the modern day arabic translation of the Quran makes no sense at all when taken word for word. Just like Shakespeare's works. I have not only read the english translation but also the urdo translation and they come to the same conclusions even though they are worded differently(none mentioned covering the face). And that's all that matters; the conclusions that Allah was coming to in his Holy Book, at least to me it does. And you're right in that this is my opinion that the women who wear the niqab are hiding behind their masks, that's why I was specific when I said 'some women' hide behind them. I read an article on the burqa/niqab in grade 10 from the textbook where the author wrote about that. And I already saw that interview on TV; Hebah lost her job because of her niqab. That just proves my point that it prevents women from progressing in their lives.
Thirdly, it does not matter that women in the past dashed for the niqab right when Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) said they were to dress modest. There's a section in a Hadith that Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) referred to a woman with a mole on her cheek. If he was against women showing her face he would've told her to cover it. And they thought modesty meant covering the face, I don't believe that modesty can only be acheived by covering the entire body and face. I feel that modesty lies in a person's actions and again, that's my interpretation and other people have theirs. I'm not sayin they're wrong, I'm just proving that it's an interpretation and so to ban it, they are not taking away the freedom of practising religion, they are taking away the right to wear whatever they want which I said takes away from the progress in ones life. As Mona from the interview said, she lost her job because of her niqab. This is something that's been happening for a while, the government has always played a part in limiting and restricting what we wear in public.
You brought up that blind people are just fine with their communication barriers and that Mona was quite clear in her interview and you went on to mention other means of comunication. What my point was is that an obstacle is created with the niqab and burka, I did not say that it would make communication impossible. Also, blind people don't have a choice with their communication barrier they must learn to cope, whereas people who wear the niqab do. And social websites have editing functions and a delete button. You can't get those in real life. You can't get that in real life. You cannot interpret in completeness just what the author of the post is getting at, regardless of how popular the social utility is. My point was that not that face-to face communication and body language are the only means of communication, my point was that they are BETTER means of communication which is exactly why employers conduct interviews in person, not by internet.
ReplyDelete"The same women who are strong, productive and active in the society at large; women who are doctors, nurses, engineers etc."
Which women are you referring to here? I'm curious. No one in Canada and France, that's for sure as majority of Canada wants the ban.
"Across Canada - which has 10 provinces and three national territories - four out of five people supported the ban."
Reference:http://ibnlive.in.com/news/niqab-ban-get-unanimous-support-in-canada/112238-2.html
And I see your point that it's a way of getting closer to God but that's your way of looking at it. It doesn't sound ethically right to me that that we allow women to wear what the Taliban forces women to wear in Afghanistan.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteEdit: Where I said "they are taking away the right to wear whatever they want which I said takes away from the progress in ones life."
ReplyDeleteI meant, " they are taking away the right to wear whatever they want but I made a point that the government has already been doing that."
Also I repeated myself twice in the long comment :P
Sorry about that~!
Wow! This conversation is heated up!
ReplyDeleteSadaf, I disagree with you! The Quran does not mention either the hijab or the niqaab. It says that it is sunnah for a Muslim
women to cover themselves up! Whether that means to wear a hijab or a niqaab. The quran mentions jayb in the Surrah you
mentioned earlier Sadaf
"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except
what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs..."
The meaning of jayb is the whole body excluding the eyes, and the palms. Therefore it is also recommended that Muslim women
wear a covering for their face. I get how you say that the niqaab can be used by anyone. Any individual of any race can put on
the niqaab with wrong intentions (violence, etc.). Yes, that can happen and it has maybe happened in the past, but that
shouldn't force the people in France to ban Niqaab. They could have found a solution for this "issue" by respecting the
religion Islam. Maybe that Muslim women who wear a niqaab have a photo ID with them that they are only allowed to show
security, the government, etc. Those who don't have an identity card, well, clearly they are frauds!
I am completely against the banning of the niqaab in France. The government should have done something towards the favour of
Muslim women. Religion plays a great role in some people's lives and the people in France should understand that. For muslim
women that practice the religion Islam with all their heart and want to follow everything close to perfectly then they should
not be stopped from doing so (e.g. praying, fasting, wearing a hijab and a niqaab).
From the looks of it I don't think France will change it's law about banning the niqaab because people have shown it so
negatively through media, and how it can a "threat" to society. A threat to society in means that people wear the niqaab to
commit crimes and not be notcied.
As for Fatima's question about Islamophobia, well, after 9/11 i do think something like that really does exist!
The idea of Muslims being terrorists is shown everywhere which builds fear in individuals against us Muslims! However, i don't
think, or more so, I don't want to believe that the banning of the niqaab was done because people are scared of Muslims. From
my perspective the main reason as to why this ban even took place is because the niqaab from other people's perspective was a safety issue, as anyone could wear it and have thoughts of "violence", use the niqaab negatively.
But Anber you just quoted "...headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs.."
ReplyDeleteThe quotation reveals that jaybs is bosoms and head covering is khimars. There's no mention of whole body covering. I think you just contradicted your point here.
"Maybe that Muslim women who wear a niqaab have a photo ID with them that they are only allowed to show security, the government, etc. Those who don't have an identity card, well, clearly they are frauds!"
But that doesn't make any sense because anyone can get an ID card or make a fake one and lie and say it's them. The issue isn't so simple to resolve which is why the ban was inevitable.
A couple of interesting things that came up to me in this thread.
ReplyDeleteA country's autonomy is a line that must be respected by international law, especially a country like France.
If France sees fit to ban religious head gear, and it passes through whatever democratic systems are set in place in France, then they're banned. If you don't like it, don't live there.
The title of this article is: "Freedom of choice: every woman's right".
What about Saudi Arabia and their atrocities with women's rights. The women in Saudi Arabia have no freedom of choice. They have no choice about marriage, medical treatment, school or work; women can’t even vote or be elected into office.
A woman’s rights in France is decades of enlightenment away from the Gileadian Saudi Arabia.
Why don’t we protest their rights? Why aren’t we as offended outright when we hear the injustices women suffer in Saudi Arabia? Why are we more offended about having to remove clothing to show identity than being deprived so many rights as a person?
Because, realistically, we can’t go around emancipating everyone in the world from things we think to be wrong.
If people don’t like it in France, they can leave. However, if women don’t like it in Saudi Arabia they COULD leave (with permission of their male guardian of course!)
Sadaf I did mention before that jayb means the whole body, and I did research on that. The quote states,"...head coverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs.." You might have seen that when reading the translations of the Quran, in brackets it's stuff usually added not explaining the word before. For example, bosom does not just mean jayb because it's mentioned in parenthesis after bosoms! Sadaf, the Quran does not mention explicitly to pray 5 times a day.So, how do you know we have to pray 5 times in a day? It does not give us the details of reading namaz, that was given to us by our Prophet, Muhammad (s.a.w.). Gabriel taught him how to pray, read the Quran, etc. The Quran only mention performing salat (PRAYER)! Would you say that namaz is not mentioned in the Quran? The same way the niqaab is mentioned in that Quran as well, just implicitly. First example is jayb, as I mentioned before means the whole body. A surrah in the Quran mentions, ``And command the Muslim women to keep their gaze low and to protect their chastity, and not to reveal their adornment...``. Adornment means something that
ReplyDeleteattracts other individuals. Features on your face attract others! And as for my comment on people wearing the niqaaab carrying identities. That is why I said that people (female securities, female individuals from the government, etc) can ask people in the niqaab to take it off. You see people over here making fake ids. They don`t wear niqaabs, instead they put on fake beards, moustaches, glasses, and so on to change their appearance. What would you do about that? When shopping at the mall, anyone can be there with a fake appearance, would you know that? So, why are all hands pointing towards the niqaab? There are other ways people can change there appearances (as I mentioned before) why aren't those banned?
comment by Tasnim:
ReplyDelete@Sadaf,
With all the respect,I still don’t find your arguments on the safety issues valid. As Amber already pointed out, there are many people who have or making fake ids. Not everyone who is trying to commit a crime is going to wear a niqab; there are people out there who put on fake beards, moustaches, glasses etc in order to hide their identity. So why ban niqabs? Why not ban the other ways to hide your identity? Also, just because the Quran doesn’t say that the wearing of the niqab is obligatory doesn’t make it right in banning it. The Quran says that females should wear a hijaab; hijaab not only meaning the head cover but the covering of your whole body. And if Muslim women want to wear a niqab to hide their body image or their “Adornment” as Amber stated it’s their choice. Also yes, I agree with the fact that the Quran was written in the olden day Arabic, and that’s why you must complete a number of stages until you are qualified to teach the Quran or to extract ruling from it. So you can’t just read it and say you fully understand the meaning behind the verse.
In addition, you mentioned that “There's a section in a Hadith that Prophet Muhammad (Salalahu Alayhee Wa salam) referred to a woman with a mole on her cheek. If he was against women showing her face he would've told her to cover it.” First of all the Prophet was never against women showing their face, in the Hadith Prophet Muhammad (Salalahu Alayhee Wa salam) said that the wearing of a niqab is a Sunnah. And those who wear it are receiving extra rewards from God, and there are women who are wearing the niqab out of complete faith and want to strive to be closer to God. So why take that ways from Muslim women?
@ Clarence.
Where are you getting your facts from, regarding women rights in Saudi Arabia? I have female relatives who live there and are not experiencing what you just stated. I mean yes women can’t drive cars or walk in the streets alone without a male accompanying them, only because in Islam (since it’s an Islamic Country) men must accompany females to protect them (since anything can happen). Also you mentioned that females in Saudi Arabia have no choice about marriage, medical treatment, school, or if they could leave Saudi Arabia. First of all I just want to say that you can’t speak for every women who lives in Saudi Arabia. Like I said earlier, I have a lot of female relatives who live there and don’t feel like they have no freedom rights.
"The usual translation of the term is "bosom"...
ReplyDeleteAs well, Surah al-Qasas ayah 32 in Arabic reads "Usluk yadaka fii JAYB ka takhrur bayda'a..." which means "Thrust your hand into your CHEST and it will come out white..." (this is a story about the prophet Musa, alayhi salam).
Shaykh Muhammad Nasiruddin Albani says that the word "jayb" is related to the word "jawb" which refers to something cut out, and he says that in this context it refers to the neckline of the woman's dress.
In any case, all of these definitions clearly point to the bosom, the upper chest, or the neck and upper chest.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/almuhajabah01.htm
This certainly does not imply "face" or "entire body"!
That's my source for what the jayb means, where's yours?
And your argument about other people wearing disguises and why those aren't those banned is weak. The problem is not with people changing their appearance, it's with concealing it. They can change it all they want, they'll still be found out. Disguises can be recognized but the niqaab covers everything except your eyes, it's not possible to identify someone wearing a niqaab. The niqaab is something that the government has control over because it breeches security, and the government does whatever majority wants. From the interview, Hibah*[I made the mistake of calling her Mona, earlier] lost her job... don't you think that's unproductive? Also, France is not a muslim country. If the niqaab wearers don't like it they should go to a country where this method of practising the Islam is accepted by the majority.
Did you know, Anber, that even when one is doing Umra and Hajj in Mecca they are required to take off the niqaab, if the holiest muslim place on Earth prohibits wearing it there, then why is it so bad to have the niqaab banned from France? I know this because I went there for Umra.
And Anber, you can't really argue that namaaz is not mandatory as it's accepted by almost all muslims. The niqaab however is only practised by a small number of muslims ; 2000 niqaab wearers in France over the five to six million people in France's muslim population. And an even smaller percentage of niqaab wearers compared to that of the entire muslim population!(Excluding Afghanistan of course, where it's forced)
Also Anber, most religious scholars agree that adornments refers to private parts, not facial features. And you butchered the quote! Whatever ordinarily appears thereof is acceptable for showing. If the Quran had said cover everything except the eyes, then maybe, you would have an agrument because of it's exactness. But I don't know any scholars or imams(except the ones in the Taliban, whom we all agree are terrible!) that agree with your interpretation of the word adornment as the rest of the sentence implies that something more than just the eyes could be revealed.
@ Fatima;
ReplyDeleteDo you know what the definition of freedom is?
Tell me, what do you think is freedom?
Clarence does make good points.
Saudi Arabia does not give women freedom.
Some examples of freedoms are freedom of speech/expression, freedom to assemble(protest), and freedom of religion all are which taken away once you step on Saudi Arabian soil.
Women are not allowed to make public speeches, practise any religion other than islam unless they want the death penalty, etc. which goes against the very definition of freedom.
Clarence is abolsutely right that women do not have freedom in Saudi Arabia.
Lindita- I completely agree with you, France should have not banned the niqab since it is snatching the right to practice religion away from women and it is unjust.
ReplyDeleteSadaf- Most of these women are willing to remove the niqab/veil in a place or situation where safety becomes a concern/issue. Also, Hibah Ahmed clearly states that “…I have no problem whatsoever accommodating any security issues that come about when I enter a bank, when I go to an airport, when I go to the DMV, I show my face, and actually in Islam we are required to show our identity when we are in court giving testimony.” I know she is saying “I” here but she is speaking for every Niqabi who does not support the banning of Niqab. So, your concern about it being a security risk is somewhat eliminated because these women are willing to remove the veil whenever security/safety becomes an issue. However, why do you say that it is associated with oppression? Yes, I do understand that women in Afghanistan and maybe in some other parts of the world are forced to wear Niqab but this is France, a place where women have their rights and have the freedom to do whatever they want.
If you watch the video clip Mona talks about oppression associated with the niqab but in France there are 2000 women who wear the niqab and majority of them are converts and are voluntarily choosing to do it. I blame the media for all of this since it often shows that women who do wear the burka, niqab or even hijab are often “forced” into doing it when really most of the time that is not the case. Also, people who do wear ski masks or any other type of masks do not wear it for religious reasons. I completely agree with Tasnim and Anber that even if you are hiding the face you are still able to communicate maybe even to the same degree. Tasnim gave a very good example about blind people still being able to communicate even after not being able to see the face, body expression and even the eyes. Also, Anber made a very good point that one of the reasons why they also hide their face is because features on you face attract others and the whole point of niqab, hijab and even burka is to protect yourself from being sexually objectified.
From my experiences, before I began to wear the hijab I did in fact receive more attention from the opposite sex, although, when I began to wear the hijab I no longer received that same attention, and that makes me feel more content as a Muslim woman, cause I don’t want that kind of attention. To be honest, I feel that I should have worn the hijab longer because of the good feeling that came along with wearing hijab. I do feel protected in many ways. It does not guarantee you a 100% that if you wear the niqab or burka you will never get hit on but it does make a difference…a huge difference. I have worn the niqab too. I wear it in Pakistan not because I was forced to but because I wanted to. There are some parts of Pakistan that are very modern, such as Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad etc…and people in such places wear jeans, skirts etc and they are allowed to be seen with a man( and in such places dating is not such a big deal), however, other parts of Pakistan are completely opposite. I have seen both sides of Pakistan. Whenever I go to Quetta, a place in Pakistan, I always wear a burka and sometimes wear a niqab. I do this because it is so uncomfortable walking down the road and seeing a man stare at you like he has never seen a female walk in his life before. It is disgusting. I never wore niqab before but I soon decided to wear it because I did not want men staring at me in a sexual way. I did not want to be objectified which is why I decided to wear the niqab for a while.
From my experiences, before I began to wear the hijab I did in fact receive more attention from the opposite sex, although, when I began to wear the hijab I no longer received that same attention, and that makes me feel more content as a Muslim woman, cause I don’t want that kind of attention. To be honest, I feel that I should have worn the hijab longer because of the good feeling that came along with wearing hijab. I do feel protected in many ways. It does not guarantee you a 100% that if you wear the niqab or burka you will never get hit on but it does make a difference…a huge difference. I have worn the niqab too. I wear it in Pakistan not because I was forced to but because I wanted to. There are some parts of Pakistan that are very modern, such as Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad etc…and people in such places wear jeans, skirts etc and they are allowed to be seen with a man( and in such places dating is not such a big deal), however, other parts of Pakistan are completely opposite. I have seen both sides of Pakistan. Whenever I go to Quetta, a place in Pakistan, I always wear a burka and sometimes wear a niqab. I do this because it is so uncomfortable walking down the road and seeing a man stare at you like he has never seen a female walk in his life before. It is disgusting. I never wore niqab before but I soon decided to wear it because I did not want men staring at me in a sexual way. I did not want to be objectified which is why I decided to wear the niqab for a while.
ReplyDelete1) I think that banning the niqab was necessary and such further restrictions on certain aspects of religion should be conducted. The niqab is very derogatory to women in the sense that it puts us back in time. One major problem I see with religion is that many of its aspects are outdated and unfortunately, in a changing society, must change as well. Now religion is not a bad thing but it has many problematic areas. The problem is that in many religious, people will continue to practice certain traditions such as discrimination against homosexuals, or creating women as less superior compared to men, simply because they are traditions. In the era we live in, we must understand that we have changed from who we used to be, we have changed from past ideals, and we have grown as a species, as humans. Religion is anti evolutionary because the things stated in any holy books mustn't be tampered with, even if they create discrimination, or even suppress the rights of women. Nothing lasts forever, no person, no object, no idea, no legacy, no society. It is sad to see us practicing such hate against each other simply because of a text or book. We should use our current logic, and morals in order to judge life, we shouldn't rely on something that was created with past ideals in mind.
ReplyDelete2)I hope not, another reason that I am in support of banning the niqab is that they pose a risk to others. If my religion says that I should kill an innocent child every tuesday, I should not in our current society be able to do so. Practicing religion is great, but when practicing it contradicts laws that exist for the safety of others, that aspect should not be practiced.
3)It is a possibility, people are in constant fear of things they do not understand, thus seeing people wearing niqabs could very possible frighten them to the point whereas they ban them.
For me, these women are heroes. They are fighting for their rights and they should continue to do so until the law does not change, until they do not get justice. These women are not scared to wear the niqab just like I was not scared, pressured or even forced into wearing the niqab. Like Hibah said, what about those women who are pressured to look a certain way and who harm themselves by doing all sorts of eating disorders, who put their lives at risk by doing plastic surgeries just so they can have that perfect body. Isn’t that oppression? Wearing the niqab is sunnah in other words, it is something that you will be rewarded for in jannah (heaven) or hereafter. I disagree with you, like I said identification and safety issues could have been solved. All of these women understand these concerns and they are willing to show their identities and do whatever they can to help out with safety concerns.
ReplyDeleteI do understand what you mean about criminals wearing the veil to hide their face but at the same time, why would they do that when they can simply hide their face by wearing the winter masks. If a guy was trying to commit a crime while wearing a niqab, how will he ever be able to run in that? It is like running in a long skirt and believe me it is not easy! Sadaf, most of the times the employers conduct interviews over the phone or internet not in person, which is one of the reasons why telecommunication and the internet is so successful now. Is it not an act of discrimination when you do not hire someone for their intelligence but what they choose to wear instead? Recently, an Asian man tried to disguise himself as an old white man by wearing a complete face mask so he can sneak himself into Canada with a Canadian fake I.D.; he was later on caught by an air hostess when he decided to remove the mask, thinking that no one would notice. If the air hostess did not notice him then he would be in Canada by now. No offence, but I do not find Anber’s point to be weak at all, as a matter of fact, it is your point that is weak. This is because you fail to recognize that there are many other things people can do to hide their identification. Who knows maybe someone has already done the same thing as the Asian guy before but no one noticed. Why are we focusing on niqabi women even when they are okay with taking off their veil whenever required? Although, France is not a Muslim country it is still a country that is based on basic human rights, its first amendment gives people a right to practice religion as they wish, which is why the niqab wearers should not go anywhere but stay in France and fight for their rights. Sadaf, I did lots of research about wearing the niqab during Hajj and Umra in Mecca and I learned that women are allowed to wear the niqab/veil as long as the cloth is not touching their faces. Many stores in Saudi Arabia sell these caps that have veils attach to them and that prevent the cloth from touching the face. This is what the scholor states: “Those who say that 'if you can't cover your face in front of the kaba then you don't have to wear niqab' have clearly misunderstood the masa'il pertaining this matter. It’s not about covering the face but about cloth touching the face”
^^^ continued ( to sadaf)
ReplyDeleteWoah there Sadaf! I never said that namaz is not mandatory. I said that the details of performing salat (prayer) are never mentioned in the Quran. So, clearly we get that information from Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) just like people in his time prayed the same way people wore coverings during his time. And, not every Muslim in this world reads namaz the same way. Yes, it's something done universily by all Muslims, just as how all Muslims are aware of the niqaab and the hijab! It's a choice, a sunnah to wear a hijab better yet a niqaab! Why would you steal the right from a Muslim to practice their religion? It just does not make sense!
ReplyDeleteAnd ok let's go your way for a second, you say that covering your face is not mentioned in the Quran, ok fine, but it doesn't even mention anything against it. It does not mention how it can be harmful for you or the society. It's just people have made it look negative. It's not like actual Muslim women go about wearing the Niqaab and commit crimes!
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/11774
Here is my evidence from where I found that jayb means covering the whole body not just bossoms. It actually says juyoobihinna which I think is the same as jayb.
Sadaf, you can't see the actual face of people wearing a mask. You'll see them in their mask when committing a crime after they've done that they can take it off and be their own selves. You cannot go against a person's religion and ban stuff that they do to practice it.
Yours and Clarence's point about those Muslim individuals moving out of France if don't like the idea of banning the niqaab is invalid. Not everyone is financially stable; some may be and some might have problems. You can't just give them that "solution", because it's not that easy to follow.
When a person gets used to something being on their body, it's hard for them to take off. I wear a hijab, and if tomorrow, God forbid, Canada bans the hijab, then I’ll literally feel naked because I started to wear a hijab so it can cover me, not so I can take it off because other think people are using at negatively. Muslims aren't!
And yes, I am aware of the fact that women have to take their niqaab off when going to perform Umra, or Hajj (one of the 5 pillars of Islam). As you said that is a holy place, people come there with a pure heart to give all of their attention and devotion to Allah (s.w.t.) not to look at women, there face, body, etc. You all have mentioned several times that is Saudi Arabia a man (husband, or blood related only) always has to accompany a woman, that's partially why; men also have to accompany woman when going for Umra, or Hajj! You have protection there. The atmosphere is such that no man will gaze up to look at a woman, or no woman will look up to see a man with wrong intentions.
Adornment means something that is appealing! Your facial features are appealing...
www.Dictionary.com ~ meaning of adornment
"Something that adds attractiveness; ornament; accessory: the adornments and furnishings of a room".
Oh and do watch this link on the bottom...
http://www.islamictube.com/playlist/1e0115312196ee8231b5/7
universally ***
ReplyDeleteoopsy
Clearance- If France is a democratic country, than how can France itself take away these freedom rights from their own citizens. Why are these Muslim women treated differently than others? Why can’t they have that freedom to practice their religion just like others are allowed to practice theirs? France is as much as their country as other citizens, who do not wear the niqab or practice Islam then, why should they leave their country? “If you don't like it, don't live there.” How can one just simply leave? Those people have their families there, their business; their whole life is settled in France, which is why they cannot just leave. Many of them came to France because it is a democratic country…or should I say was. This is a complete different scenario but when African Americans were brought into America as slaves-they faced discrimination not because of their religion but because of their colour. If people like Harriet Tubman did not fight for their rights than things would never change. I understand that this situation was a lot different than the situation now in France and I also know that African Americans were not given the freedom to leave but even then, this is an example of an act of discrimination just like banning niqab is an act of discrimination as well. Here is a better example, many African Americans still faced discrimination even after slavery was abolished (1865), if people, like Rosa Park, did not stand up for their rights than they would, perhaps, still be treated like slaves. She was famous for disobeying a bus driver’s order for giving up her seat to make room for a white passenger. My point is that even after slavery became illegal, people were still treated badly and were snatched away of basic human rights by white Americans. African Americans knew that it was wrong; they knew they deserved to be treated equally as everyone else which is why they fought with the public and even the law system when slavery was legal. I know discrimination still goes around everywhere but it is not as much severe as it was then, however, I do find it to be severe when it comes to France since it legalized the banning of niqab, which violates basic human rights.
ReplyDeleteOkay, Clarence, where are you getting these misconceptions about Saudi Arabia from? I lived in Saudi Arabia and from my experiences; women are not snatched away of their rights or freedom. Women do have the freedom to get married to whoever they want as long as the suitor is of the Islamic faith. Many religions, such as Christianity and Judaism, follow the same rule about marrying someone from the same religion. Medical treatment, wow… that is a new one! Women ARE allowed to have medical treatments; however, they cannot have abortion because in Islam it is considered a murder. Women do work in Saudi Arabia; they often have higher jobs and are not given jobs that are considered to be “low”, such as of a construction worker etc. You might see this as something negative, but the people of Saudi Arabia see it as a sign of respect, that their women will work at respectful jobs such as doctors, lawyers, receptionist etc. Many Saudi Arabian women are content with these rules regarding women not driving or going out late at night alone etc. Clarence, I do not blame you for not understanding this because it is a different culture and religion, and it can be challenging to understand the motive behind it. The motive behind such things are to protect women; to prevent petrifying things such as rape from taking place, there are just so many other reasons to it. You might see it from a negative point of view but not for the Muslim woman, hence, this is not oppression, and Saudi Arabia is a very peaceful country…the women of Saudi Arabia do not oppose the law simply because they understand the motive behind them. Lastly, Saudi Arabian law does not target a minority unlike France. You may think the law made for women for not being able to drive is an act of “discrimination” or “targeting” women, but it is not viewed the same way by most Muslim men and women in Saudi Arabia and around the globe. France a democratic country = hypocrisy
ReplyDeleteI'm against banning the niqab. The French government claims that they banned the niqab because it oppressed women and that it was a security hazard. The government of France believes that the niqab oppresses women, that it depraves them of an identity, but I think that the worst deprivation of one's identity is to rob one of their own choice. Many women who wear a niqab choose to do so, and this law deprives them of their identity. I also don't understand why the niqab is a symbol of oppression, women that wear niqabs are not oppressed, they have the same fundamental rights as anyone else.
ReplyDeleteThe government of France also states that covering your face is a security hazard. But, as Hebah stated in the video, it is completely okay for the women to reveal their face in order to prove their identity.
I think that very soon, this law will be revoked, and it will be legal once again for women in France to wear a niqab. I think this because the outcry of the Muslim community on this matter is far too large for the government to not act upon, and the only course of action which will resolve this issue, is to lift the ban.
I do believe that many people, even countries are Islamophobic, but I don't think this was the underlying reason for the banning of the niqab. Yes, they are banning something from the Islamic culture, but their actions are influenced by what they think is best for France, not by a fear of Islam spreading across their country.
So before I answer the questions I just want to say that, a couple of days ago a friend of mine posted a link related to the hijab ban on Facebook. I looked at it and the first thought that came to me, was “what the heck is wrong with them?” Personally, even though I am not a Muslim, I find this offensive. Certain types of clothings are banned in the world, but none of them refer to a specific religion (as pointed out in the video).
ReplyDeleteI find it completely unreasonable and ridiculous the French would ban something that is such crucial part of a religion. It is like they are against the entire religion. Well if I look at it from a different point of view, a legal point of view, it is very much reasonable. When a few take the niqab seriously, some other might just use it as a way for crime. However, I believe that if it was for security, they should have just banned the hijab, not the entire niqab. It is like telling you that you can’t wear your sunglasses because it hides your “identity”. And I completely agree with Heebah in the video when she says that this is just another way for the men to “control” the women, just on a legislative level.
The French should change the law from a religious point of view, but looking at it from a security point of view, I don’t think they will change it.
I don’t think that Islamophobia is the reason for the niqab ban; I think that the sole reason for the ban is security. But i do believe that there is Islamophobia, there are many people in our society who detest the Muslims. All I have to say about the ban is that, if it is the female’s CHOICE to wear he niqab then no one, not even the government should make them take it off.
Wow ! Clearly a lot has been said, but I am going to stick strictly to the article. I am a proud Muslim and would like to represent it, and some of you with all do respect may have mentioned things that may not be correct, although I am sure were all mature enough to express our opinions respectfully. So again I remind all of you, please take no offense. I understand that this can sound bias because I am a woman, and am also in fact a Muslim woman, but hands down, I was extremely offended and applaud to see how France baned the Niqab. At first I was curious to see.. well WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD THEY DO THAT? But I consider myself to be a reasonable person, I may not agree with the government system in France but I am curious and interested in knowing their reason behind such a law. In a country like France which is obviously not known to be a dominant Muslim country, but in my opinion should still be known as a free one. If the reason behind the banning of the niqab is for “safety reasons” , that can be argued because as this Niqabi woman named Hibah in the video that Fatima posted mentioned that woman who are wearing the niqab are perfectly well aware that when it comes to security reasons and identify themselves they are allowed to take it off. Niqab is not mandatory in Islam, although highly respect especially because it creates a closeness with Allah. My point about France was because it is in fact not a dominant Muslim country; most of the women in France probably wear the niqab for their own will and not anyone else’s. If practising a religion is not harming anyone it’s simply a personal mutual way of connecting with god, WHY IN THE WORLD DOES ANYONE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT? And excuse me but boundary for communication? Half the time so many people are fake with their own expression and if that is the only way people think communicating is possibly, through the face than that is just sad! Having a veil over your face does not speak you from talking. Personally I’m even close with a niqabi friend and she has told me numerous times, “Because people can’t tell that I’m smiling, I approach them with my words which actually make them pay so much more attention to what I am saying. I get that respect because when people talk to me it’s like their really listening more than ever.”
ReplyDeleteHonestly the world has so many problems like beyond sad depressing horrifying problems, and if theirs anything in the world that should be banned like drugs, prostitution or even cigarettes, IT’S NIQABS? And if you feel like your honouring the woman by taking away their right of what they should wear, you’re not at all. You are degrading them. Since when did what women wear become such a problem? These women are such strong independent self thinking woman, making that choice actually makes them fearless because there choosing to cover themselves from head to toe even knowing many people might react to it differently. I’m really passionate about my faith and I would really like to clarify something. WITH ALL DO RESPECT, woman who wear the niqab and I mean woman who wear it by choice not forced, are not scared of the judgement of the WORLD. They fear the judgment of ALLAH. It is mandatory for a woman in Islam to cover her hair and body and if she is to not dress accordingly than if any man is to lay eyes upon her, it is not only a sin for him, but for her as well. And in order to protect herself from that she covers herself. Some woman who are beyond that step and want to have a closer connection with god and want to please him, take a further step and cover their faces, in hopes for reward because their taking an extra step to cover themselves. AND THAT’S WHY THE NIQAB IS WORN. Woman who wear them for religion are extremely confident because her relationship with Allah is so strong that to please him SHE WEARS THE NIQAB, is a sign of strong imaan (faith) NOT FEAR and France is discriminating against this. You have no idea how much it takes for a woman to have that much commitment, and with all do respect if you don’t agree with the niqab that’s PERFECTLY FINE, but don’t make up assumptions based on their intentions by saying they wear it out of fear of PEOPLE and are WEAK. We all have different purposes and intentions, let God judge it. The woman behind these veils are people with rights and freedom of choice, remember that. It’s heartbreaking but ignorance is making the world fall apart. If one person has an opinion about the ban, even a niqabi, she doesn’t stand for the rest of the population.
ReplyDeleteThe banning of the niqab is an infringement on the rights and freedom of women as well as their religion (Islam). Wearing of the niqab shows the commitment these women have for their God. I agree with the government and the strict laws decision being passed. It is not only for the safety of the French people but also for the beneficial of the women. People might disgust themselves as Muslim women and commit a crime which makes investigation a bit difficult for the police. To minimize such cruel actions, the faces of these women should be revealed for their own safety.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think France will ever change its law about the banning of niqab because as soon as the criminals get to know such a system no more exists, they will take advantage to continue their activities such may turn out to be governmental issues. That is, the government has to waste finance to compensate for the victims of the crime.
Due to the number of criminal cases we hear around the world, the French government might be opposing strict rules and regulations to make the country peaceful.
France did not only ban niqaabs it banned all facial coverings so it's not directly attacking muslims as everyone seems to be perceiving. It's not a crime against Islam.
ReplyDeleteFatima I don't think the niqaab is a form of oppression if it's chosen to be worn. I just think it limits a person's productivity because from the video we know that Hibah lost her job because of her niqaab.
How can you say for all 2000 women in France that they will take it off when asked? Sure Hibah said that she will but what about the 1999 others?
@ Anber;
I know that reading namaaz is not explicity written in the Quran but it is still mandatory. This does not mean that all practises in Islam should be made legal because stoning is still accepted in Islam and but it definitely cannot be practised in any country other than Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc.. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan are muslim countries and allows its citizens, who are predominantly muslim, to do this. France does not allow it because it is not fair or just. And since France sees facial coverings, including the niqaab, as threats to their nation they have a valid reason for banning the niqaab. It was not like they singled muslims out.
Alright Anber, you win. The niqaab may be in the Quran and practised back in the day, but so was stoning. Which I'm sure you and I can both agree that it is terrible! And the way I see it, if one can get into France, one can get out of France so the women who now can no longer wear the niqaab could go to countries where that practise is accepted. In those countries no one would see them as potential threat.
And you can argue that not everyone in a niqaab will have criminal intent, it's the fact that they won't be identifiable if they did that made it necessary for France to ban the niqaab.
Canada would never ban the hijab because it doesn't create identification issues nor does it affect your ability to get and keep a job.
Anber you stated, "You all have mentioned several times that is Saudi Arabia a man (husband, or blood related only) always has to accompany a woman, that's partially why; men also have to accompany woman when going for Umra, or Hajj! You have protection there. The atmosphere is such that no man will gaze up to look at a woman, or no woman will look up to see a man with wrong intentions." That's not giving women equality since she has to be dependent on her male relative to go out shopping, or even to a religious place. How can you say that all the men there won't look at her and admire her, no one can get into anyone else's mind and confirm such. The situation is the same as the one in France. It's a public place that does not permit the niqaab!
And Anber... I'm sorry but that's Dictionary.com (not made by muslims) not an islamic scholar's opinion on the word in the Quran.
@ Sundas: it's not one person's opinion against the entire niqaab wearing population. Majority of France wanted it banned and so it was banned. Majority always wins. It wasn't a decision made by only non-muslims, as France has 5-6 million muslim inhabitants.
I think that the niqab should not be banned because the government would be taking away that person’s values and something that is a lifelong practice which holds importance to them. I think it is reasonable to ask to remove it for identification, for security purposes.
ReplyDeleteRacial profiling may also play a prominent role in the government’s reasoning to ban the niqab, since they may be afraid that women wearing a niqab can be terrorists, which is just discrimination. In western society where individuals are influenced to conform and become “westernized”, it must take tremendous courage to try and preserve one’s identity and culture.